Voices of Sustainability: Season 2, Episode #6
Hallie Cole
TRT: 28:02
Hello, and welcome to the Voices of Sustainability podcast. My name is Halle Cole, and I will be your host and reporter for season two. This season, we're looking ahead and continuing the dialogue about sustainability. These episodes feature in-depth conversations with leaders who are helping shape what sustainability will look like in the years to come. I'll be speaking with professionals across fields to highlight the various strategies and challenges faced by the government, businesses, and nonprofits who are all striving to balance economic growth with environmental and social responsibility.
In this episode, I'm speaking with Allen Klump, the Executive Director at the Palmetto Nuclear Coalition, a public-private partnership formed to expand nuclear energy innovation, deployment, and policy in South Carolina. Stay tuned to learn about the importance of legislation in advancing energy innovation, as well as the roles that Allen and his organization are stepping into amidst the changing political and environmental landscapes. Let's get into it.
Hallie Cole
So just to get us going, Allen, could you share a little bit about your background, your role in the nuclear energy realm, and about PNC as an organization?
Allen Klump
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for having me on. I'm a proud graduate of the University of South Carolina, so I always like the opportunity to participate in university functions as much as I can. So my background is when I was a student at University of South Carolina, I had the opportunity to attend the South Carolina-Washington Semester Program. Spent a semester up in Washington, D.C., working in a Senate office. Loved it, had a great time. When I graduated, I worked on political campaigns and ultimately found my way working for the South Carolina congressional delegation. First as communications director, then deputy chief of staff and chief of staff. And finally, as chief of staff and shared employee with the House Committee on Energy and Commerce. I worked in and around Congress for about 15 years. And after I left, I moved back to South Carolina.
I worked for the South Carolina Manufacturers Alliance for two legislative sessions and then moved over to Maynard Nixon law firm. Regarding nuclear power, I was fortunate. One of the things that you'll learn if you work on the Hill [Capitol Hill], is your interest or the interest of your member of Congress who you've worked for oftentimes becomes your interest. And I worked for a member of Congress, Jeff Duncan, who was very passionate about energy. He was a very much all-of-the-above-guy. But you can't talk about energy and be a member of the South Carolina congressional delegation without talking about nuclear power.
South Carolina's got a lot of unique things going for it when it comes to nuclear power. 55% of our power generation in South Carolina comes from nuclear power. I believe it's the top three in the country. We have amazing assets like the Oconee Nuclear Station to the V.C. Summer [Nuclear Station] to the Savannah River National Lab. More recently, we have the SC NEXUS federally designated Tech Hub, which is a really big field here. We have the Westinghouse Fuel Fabrication Facility, which is right here in Columbia, which is an amazing facility that is responsible for keeping the lights on and most of the nuclear power plants across the country. And we have the Naval Nuke Program [the Naval Nuclear Power Training Command] in Goose Creek, South Carolina, where most of the naval forces that work on nuclear submarines receive their training.
So, South Carolina is fully integrated in the nuclear space. So it's always been an issue that I've been very passionate about. One of my last official projects I got to work on before I left the Capitol Hill was working on the ADVANCE Act, which was the comprehensive reform of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission and our nuclear strategy as a country. And that was a really fun project to work on for Congressman Duncan from blueprint to legislative text. Then shortly after I left the Hill, they were actually able to get that bill completely finished and across the finish line. And it was bipartisan, which is very hard to do these days, but it was very exciting to see a bill that had overwhelming bipartisan support and make some real changes get done. So that's a little bit about my background.
Regarding the Palmetto Nuclear Coalition—so that was founded by Ethel Bunch. And Ethel has been working in South Carolina in the energy and sustainability space for many years. And she saw—what I've seen—is that South Carolina has untapped nuclear potential. And she wanted to make sure that there was an entity put in place in South Carolina that could help advance economic investment and the thorough examination of our nuclear assets in South Carolina. So she put together the Palmetto Nuclear Coalition, which is a combination of off-takers—and which are hyperscalers, like data centers, but also traditional manufacturers as well. So our founding member companies are Google, DC BLOX, Milliken [Milliken & Company], and Nucor. And we're working on all things nuclear in South Carolina to bring the business community together in that space.
Hallie Cole
I tend to start off by asking all my interviewees how they define sustainability. And I guess for you, specifically, as the executive director, how does that concept guide the mission of the Palmetto Nuclear Coalition?
Allen Klump
Absolutely. Well, at PNC, we support all of the above sources of power. And I think when you come down to sustainability and reliability, that is a very important strategy for the state. When it comes to nuclear power specifically, looking at some of the advantages that nuclear has—so nuclear is carbon-free. The other benefit of nuclear power, which causes it to really distinguish itself from other carbon-free sources, is that it's 24/7, 365 baseload power, which is very important, especially when you talk about manufacturers, talk about reliability, grid stability. So having that ability there.
In the past, the most quote unquote unsustainable part about nuclear power has been on the waste stream. We all know that nuclear power creates waste. But what we've seen is—and this is why we were able to get such bipartisan support for the ADVANCE Act to get through—was we've seen solutions to the waste issue with nuclear fuel recycling. And so the ability to recycle that fuel and more technologies and more companies that are coming online to explore that capability. It shows us that we have to stop thinking of waste as waste and think of it as another resource. I saw a statistic, and I apologize, I'm probably getting some of the numbers a little off, but it was that Europe has enough nuclear waste sitting in storage to power the entire continent for about 50 to 75 years if it could be fully recycled. So when you start changing that aspect of it—of its reliability, of its sustainability, of the fact that you can take the waste and use it as a resource and recycle it more and more frequently. And the fact that there's private sector capital that is being invested in that space, this is not just government funded programs that are exploring into recycling. That makes nuclear energy quite an attractive energy source for both industry and for those that want to and reduce our carbon footprint.
Hallie Cole
And when you're talking about this, I guess, circularity of the waste with nuclear energy, what role does PNC play in promoting that circularity aspect?
Allen Klump
Absolutely. Well, we are a member-driven organization, and we have partnerships with the University of South Carolina. We have partnerships with various companies, either that are directly or indirectly involved in the nuclear space. And so what we're trying to do is to look at how we can support PNC's mission on a regulatory front, both on the federal and state level. I'll give you an example. When you think about the big AP1000 reactors, the ones that were put up at Vogtle [Vogtle Electric Generating Plant], those are regulated through the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. And the ADVANCE Act reformed the NRC's process for reviewing those big projects and other projects that fall within that NRC domain.
What we're trying to do at PNC is basically look at the different areas that we can control. So on the federal level, we've been very supportive of the regulatory changes that have been made. President Trump has issued a significant number of executive orders related to nuclear power, which have created a lot of interest in the industry. So for example, certain nuclear projects that are going to be deployed on federal land can go through a separate approval process outside of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, which could expedite the process. So all of a sudden, that makes assets in South Carolina, like Fort Jackson, or Joint Base Charleston, look like very attractive locations for potential investment in sites. Same thing is true with the Savannah River site.
Another thing that we've tried to get involved with is what level the state can be involved in helping these programs. So we were very involved in pushing the South Carolina Energy Reform Package, which passed this past year—again, bipartisan piece of legislation—which expedites the permitting process for a variety of energy projects in the state. I believe it was really energy agnostic on which programs that would apply to. But for example, one of the provisions in the bill allows any kind of environmental appeals regarding an energy project to be appealed directly to the South Carolina Supreme Court. So you're still making sure that due process is in place and that level of scrutiny is in place for projects—you're not cutting any safety—but you're cutting several layers of red tape that it would go through with the appeals process. And you're creating more certainty, you're shrinking the timeline, that always helps with investment. So if you're looking at a state where it would be attractive to look at one of these projects, like a small modular reactor or a waste recycling center, the fact that you have that really good regulatory scheme set up in South Carolina makes it more attractive. And that's a good way that you could take advantage of our resources in the state.
Hallie Cole
Now, over the course of your career, you know, you've been talking about how you've been so deeply involved in shaping national energy legislations. You just said the ADVANCE Act. From your perspective, working in those sorts of landscapes, what do you see to be the greatest hurdles for nuclear energy's growth in South Carolina? And I guess also nationally?
Allen Klump
Yeah, we'll start with national. I think nationally, the big issue with the ADVANCE Act was the Nuclear Regulatory Commission was always intended to advance nuclear power. That was the mission statement of the agency. But the way that the Nuclear Regulatory Commission was operating for the longest time was instead of finding a way to get to a yes, they were looking for excuses to say no. And that makes it very difficult in a highly regulated space to allow for innovation to take place. And so that's what we tried to do with the ADVANCE Act. We went around numerous stakeholders, and I was just one part of a very large team that worked on that. But the general principle that we worked on was “Let's go around to the entire community and figure out what we need to do to help the process move forward without sacrificing safety, without making sure that the rigor of the NRC is changed or reduced in any way, how can we speed up the process?” And we found that we needed to start with that mission statement, basically reiterating that the point of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission is to promote nuclear power.
One example that I've given is kind of like if you had a 20-page paper and you had one punctuation issue and the professor fails you and doesn't give you any guidance about what you need a change in your paper or what you need to work through, you just got an immediate F. They say, you know, good luck next time. That's the way that the NRC was working before. And now, through the ADVANCE Act and through different regulations that are going in place and the internal reviews that are happening within the federal government, is we want that process to be far more collaborative—willingness to be a collaborative regulator is the philosophy that we attempted to apply to the NRC through the ADVANCE Act. And the fact that it was done so bipartisanly gives me great confidence that we'll be able to do that. And so that's why I'm so bullish on nuclear energy because it has that bipartisan backing and we're gonna continue to move in that direction.
Hallie Cole
I had a question, though, when you're talking about I guess the overall efficiency of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission and how it's changed since the ADVANCE Act. I'm sure it's a quite lengthy process, but if you could describe a little bit further in detail as to how you guys balance both removing some of the red tape that you talked about, while also ensuring that it was done in a responsible manner to make sure that you guys continue to grow nuclear energy without removing the necessary safety steps involved.
Allen Klump
Absolutely. I think some of it has to do with some of the various forums and reports reporting periods that had to occur and looking for duplication. So if you map out the approval process that's put in place with the NRC, you know, if you require a public comment period at one point in the process, and then you require another public comment period in a separate part of the process, and the design has doesn't really change between the two, can you cut one of those out without sacrificing safety? And that's kind of the general process. Same thing with different review periods and things. Just map out an entire process and make sure that like, okay, is there any way that this new design is going to short circuit an opportunity for a stakeholder group or a concerned citizen to have their voice heard? And if the answer is no, and you're able to look through it and find ways to save time and money—especially when you have private entities that are trying to innovate in this space that don't have the balance sheets to be able just to burn cash through an approval process—that can make a world of difference.
Hallie Cole
And when you guys are reaching out to the community, whether it be business, the local public, or government, how do you go about creating these long-term partnerships and working for the greater goal?
Allen Klump
Yeah, it's a great question. I think one of the first things that we do is try to focus on education. So I had the opportunity to go to BMW to represent PNC. They do something really unique and special. They have a stakeholder engagement day where they invite in a bunch of their community partners from education to utilities to municipalities that are in their general footprint and talk about challenges facing the community. And I had an opportunity to go there and talk about the energy reform package that passed in South Carolina and to talk about PNC's issues regarding nuclear power. I'm sure there were several people there that were hearing some of that information for the first time.
You mentioned earlier about that 55% comment surprising you a little bit. It surprised a lot of folks that have lived here their whole life that don't realize the footprint that nuclear has in the state. And that's one of the values of nuclear too, right? You can produce a lot of power in a relatively very small footprint. It's important to be able to have these conversations about trade-offs, about what our resources are and where it makes sense to, you know, deploy nuclear versus another source of energy and what value is there. So trying to get out the community, trying to educate the legislature. And so, yeah, as much as we're able to bring in experts that can help educate them on the trade-offs of nuclear power and where the state of the industry is, they find that to be very useful and helpful.
Hallie Cole
Along those lines, just in your experience of having these sorts of discussions and conversations, what sort of perceptions are you having to often burst that bubble with just because they don't know?
Allen Klump
Great question. So there is a perception that nuclear power is too expensive. And there is a little truth to that, but there's a lot of misinformation around that claim. A nuclear plant to build has a lot of upfront capital costs. And there's a lot of reasons for that too. You know, there's about 94 nuclear reactors that are operating in the United States today. And my understanding is there's around 50 different design types for those 94 different reactors. So you don't have a lot of consistency in the design. Students of the business school know there's value in mass production and being able to take a one or two or three different designs and build them to scale. You get a lot of cost savings and scalability.
So one of the things that we're seeing in the nuclear space right now is a recognition that in order to scale up the fleet, there needs to be some industry decisions that focus on a few design types. And by doing that, you can significantly reduce the cost associated with production. The Vogtle plants that were just completed in Georgia, along with the V.C. Summer plants that were incomplete in South Carolina, there were a lot of lessons learned there. You had to create a supply chain. The project was started before the design was finalized. There were a lot of different lessons learned, but once those lessons were learned, the costs have already started to reduce. The modeling that I've seen shows that every AP1000 you build after the first two that were already built—and don’t think they count the first two in the scale that they want to build out—so it's 10 additional reactors. Every reactor you build drops in price because you have certainty in the supply chain, you're able to do some bulk purchasing, you have lessons learned, more efficiencies, all of that adds up. And so that's an important component to think about.
Another important component is when you think that these projects can be relicensed for 50, 60, 75 years—the value of the energy over a 75-year period, when you look at the upfront capital expense, it does become a very cheap energy resource when you look at it in the long term. And we're seeing the theoretical possibility of immortal reactors, of nuclear power plants that can be built, that can be relicensed for effort. And so when you start considering that they can be relicensed extensively longer than their intended, initially intended time. That price becomes very competitive. And it's important to talk about that when you're looking at prices compared to other things.
And then, of course, the waste issue we talked about previously is another one that comes into play. And when you can educate folks that there's things that you can do with the waste and the waste actually can become an asset, there's a whole conversation to be had about the waste stream and changing the perception of that as a value-based stream.
Hallie Cole
Just like in the general talk of sustainability, it's quite hard sometimes, I think, to have people think about the long term. You know, you're talking about economies of scale, you're talking about comparing the upfront cost to the cost over time and thinking about it that way. And I think that that's really important when you're bringing up—this isn't even a newer technology, but a newer way of thinking about this technology that we've had and how can we scale it up.
I wanted to shift a little bit because you had been speaking a bit about the current administration's regulatory changes. And I guess in your case, they've been making the regulatory process a bit more efficient and easier to navigate. How is PNC responding to these efforts? How do you guys anticipate when these changes come about as an organization overall, just your strategy?
Allen Klump
The response that the industry's had for the executive orders has been phenomenal. The concern that you always have when you see executive orders is they can be changed from one administration to the next. And so there is some risk that is associated with creating a business model for a project based on an executive order knowing that a future administration could change in that direction. And as you know, in the business world, certainty is so important when you're looking at long-term investment. So that is always a challenge.
Our hope is nuclear power—I believe, is the most bipartisan energy source in America today. Nuclear puts itself in a position where if you are the private sector trying to plan for the longer term, you have probably your best luck in knowing that you're going to have a favorable regulator, whether you are in a Republican administration or a Democratic administration, which helps with investment. I think a lot of these companies would enjoy seeing some of these executive orders codified and put into law so that way any uncertainty surrounding them would be eliminated. But there's also some hope too that even if that's not able to take place, early successes in this space, utilizing the flexibility that was established through the executive orders, could result in a future administration, even one of a different party, continuing those same policies. And we've seen that in a lot of different areas over time. I feel like a lot of times in the news cycle, we pay attention to the contrasts and the differences between the two parties versus what connects them and where they come together.
And these are long-term investments. It takes a while to build a nuclear power plant with these SMR [small modular reactor] technologies. There's a lot of private capital that has to be put up in order to take the risk of coming up with a design and the hope that your design will be one of the first ones to be adopted. I think oftentimes about Arizona; [it] was one of the very very first states in the autonomous vehicle space. And the reason they got that position is because they decided to create a regulatory climate for themselves that made it easy to test AVs and to get the licenses to set that up. Regardless of what you think about AVs or not, that was a very attractive method for bringing that business to the state. And we'd like to see similar operations put in South Carolina where we have a very flexible, safe, forward-thinking regulatory scheme which would attract investment and research and operations of some of these more advanced technologies into South Carolina.
Hallie Cole
I guess we're hitting up on the end of our time right here, but just to close, I was wondering if you had any insight or advice that you would like to share with students, young professionals, anyone who's maybe wanting to build a career at the intersection of energy, policy, sustainability overall, and if you have any insights also as to what you may see to be the biggest opportunities for new professionals that are hoping to make their mark in nuclear energy.
Allen Klump
Yeah, well, I think the nuclear sector is a very rich sector for recent grads or upcoming graduates to consider. And there is a lot of opportunity in a lot of different ways. You do not have to be a nuclear physicist to work in the nuclear industry. The financing component in the nuclear space, I would argue, is almost as important as the engineering right now. To be able to create some unique financing models to save costs, to deploy this fleet, to speed things up, to define collaborators. There are financial gurus out there that are helping solve our energy problems by coming up with innovative ways to deploy capital. And I can't think of a better group of future leaders than the graduates of the Darla Moore School to be at the spear tip of this issue, the nuclear energy rebirth of providing unique solutions to the financial component of this reactor buildout.
Everyone that's a business student knows about the energy crunch that we're in right now. It's not just as a state or as a country, but as a planet. The AI revolution has completely changed all the projections of where energy demand is going to be. So if that space interests you, if you're interested in AI, if you're interested in energy, I would strongly consider that you look at the nuclear field as an area that you might want to get involved in. It's a fascinating space. And for the recent graduates at the [McCausland] College of Arts and Sciences program too, the political science majors out there, like I was, there's a role for you to play too. And the tax credit side of things and everything I've talked about on this podcast about the legal side and the government partnership side. So there's a lot of different disciplines that can come into play with nuclear power, not just the engineers, although we certainly need those too. So it's a great space. I think it's a great space of opportunity. And given its bipartisan nature, I think it's very likely to be a fascinating, growing space for the foreseeable future.
Thank you to Allen for taking the time to talk to us about the advocacy work and outreach that he does within his job at the Palmetto Nuclear Coalition. As Allen mentioned, it's important to continue striving for new information and perspectives as we continue on this collaborative path towards more sustainable futures. If you haven't already, be sure to check out the previous season's episodes in which several Darla Moore undergraduate students talk with sustainability leaders who chose to pursue their green initiatives close to home in the state of South Carolina. Thanks for listening, and we'll catch you next time.